Interview with Else Høyrup (Hoyrup):
How I became interested in the topic ‘Women in Physics’
Introduction
Else Høyrup (Hoyrup) is MSc (cand.scient.) in mathematics, historian of science and historian of physics, and she has worked extensively with women in the history of STEM subjects and physics. Among other things, she founded the Kraka Prize for Gender Research in 1999 under the Danish Association for Gender Research (Foreningen for Kønsforskning i Danmark), wrote the book ‘Kvinder. Arbejde og intellektuel udvikling’ (Women. Labour and Intellectual Development) in 1974, and created the website “Fysikken og dens Historie” (“Physics and its History”): www.fysikhistorie.dk with her partner Frank Nielsen. In connection with sharing an article about Hilde Levi, also written by Else, we interviewed Else more about her career, life, and interest in the topic Women in Physics.
Could you briefly tell us about your background and career, and mention the highlights that you feel stand out most for you?
My 5 years of maths studies (1964-1969) is one of my happiest periods in life, both academically and socially. The fact that I became an instructor after just one year also played a big role in my later career, both financially and pedagogically. I began to realise that I like to express myself, both orally and in writing.
However, I didn’t want to become a high school teacher. I had teachers and fellow students who encouraged me to become a researcher, and it was crazy exciting. I was lucky enough to get several scholarships along the way.
After a couple of years, I got a little tired of the ‘pure’ theoretical maths. Since then, I’ve worked with the history of science, gender roles and women in maths and physics. The turning point in my life came when my life partner, Frank Nielsen (formerly at DTU), suggested that we should create a website together about “Fysikken og dens Historie” (“Physics and its History”): www.fysikhistorie.dk. It was as exciting for me as the maths of my youth. I now had an identity as a historian of physics, specialising in the topic Women in Physics.
Your career has had a strong focus on knowledge, society and the role of women. Could you elaborate a bit more on what topics you are passionate about and how you have intertwined your education and skills to create your career path?
I am passionate about STEM subjects, about history and about gender studies, and the topic of women in physics has been a particular focus for me for a number of years now.
I have been advocating for more women in STEM subjects for years. That is, borne out of commitment! But after getting to know the care sector, I now also advocate for more employees here. For me today, STEM subjects and the care sector are equally important. I also advocate for more smart and empathetic men in the care sector.
I have realised that wisdom and intelligence are not the same thing. For me, wisdom includes human wisdom, and for me today, wisdom is the decisive factor.
When it comes to teaching physics and maths, for example, human intelligence is also crucial for reaching all those students who do not immediately understand everything on their own!
My education as a mathematician has trained me for both research and communication. This has lasted since my pure youth and into my current old age. I am 79 years old now, and I am still curious to learn more and apply what I learn.
You taught maths, gender studies, etc. at the University of Copenhagen and Roskilde University (RUC) between 1965 and 1979. How did you experience the presence of female students at the universities back then?
Mathematics was a regular course in the beginning when I worked at the University of Copenhagen. But later, I taught a small class in probability and statistics at RUC, and there was a lot of co-operation with the students.
Gender research has been more like study circles, lectures, conferences and women’s political meetings.
University of Copenhagen: When I started the big ‘MAT 1’ course at UCPH in 1964 for mathematicians, physicists and others, we had 300 participants. Of these, about one third were women. I thought that was very nice, considering that maths was considered a male subject back then. In the first year exam, 11 of us got top marks, including two women. The 10 of us who did best in the oral exam became ‘buddy instructors’. In other words, two os us taught together in our own year group. I taught with my fiancé at the time. Does this scheme still exist today?
There was no women’s consciousness back then. It only came with the women’s movement. For me, it only started in 1972. My then husband and I had been working on the project ‘Maths in Society’. Then, one day, I was at a women’s meeting, and one of the participants asked me if I had thought about the theme ‘women and maths’. I had not at the time – I was so used to being an exception in the field. But she pushed me in the right direction, and from then on, the topic ‘women in STEM subjects’ became one of my main interests. PS: Back then it was not called STEM, we were talking about the natural sciences.
RUC (Roskilde University): At the beginning of RUC’s lifetime, there were many debates. For me, this was both a plus and a minus:
Plus: Because I found the debates on gender research, VTS = science, technology & society; history and politics exciting, in contrast to the maths programme at University of Copenhagen, where there were no debates.
Minus: RUC’s first years were very tumultuous and characterised by fierce power struggles. This did not favour my job satisfaction. The environment at the Department of Mathematics at University of Copenhagen was more cosy, but it was very male-dominated.
Have you had one or more role models and mentors throughout your life? How have they inspired and supported you to achieve what you wanted to do?
Yes, I have had several role models and mentors who have supported me in my research, first in maths, then in the history of science and working with the topic women in STEM. Since I am in a male field, I have also had male role models and mentors, but of course also women.
Let me start with the women first:
Bodil Tornehave (my ‘spare mum’), who was a physicist and researcher. Although she was originally a physicist, she had moved on to various forms of history. Therefore, she also supported my shift to history of science and women in STEM.
Karen Louise Bøggild, who was my high school biology teacher. She told us about the latest research on RNA and DNA. It was an eye-opener for me. Today I am in contact with her grandson, Peter Bøggild, who is a professor of physics at DTU.
Edda Sveinsdottir was a computer scientist, inventor and professor. She pioneered the use of computers for image processing. This led to the method of computer tomography. I have written a biography about her, which is available on lex.dk. She was very creative and inspiring.
The men:
Hans Tornehave, Professor of Mathematics
Christian Ulrik Jensen (Chr.u), Professor of Mathematics
Both Hans Tornehave and Chr.u supported me in becoming a researcher.
Olaf Pedersen (OP), Professor of History of Physics
Mogens Pihl, Professor of Physics and History of Physics
Both OP and Mogens Pihl supported my switch to the history of science.
Later, OP also supported me when I started on the topic women in STEM history.
Jeppe Dyre Professor of Physics. Jeppe was my mentor regarding Emmy Noether, a pioneer in algebra and the foundations of physics. What she discovered was the connection between symmetries and conservation laws in physics. Note: I checked the encyclopaedia www.lex.dk. There are two large articles on physics and the history of physics. Emmy Noether’s results are mentioned in both places, but her name is not mentioned. In fact, no female physicists are mentioned, not even Marie Curie. Something should be done about this! It’s not enough that we write articles about women separately. The basic history itself should also include women’s contributions.
I have not had a straight career, but I have gone my own way. Fortunately, as I mentioned, I have met a number of smart and inspiring people who have found what I was doing interesting. And I have had several scholarships to pursue my own goals.
Thinking back through your time as a university lecturer, are there any other reflections you have on what to consider when teaching STEM subjects to the younger generation?
That women and men are equal, even though we are not the same. And that talented women should have the same opportunities as talented men. And that it should be the responsibility of both male and female teachers, colleagues and fellow students to help realise equality.
When I look at KIF’s website, there are plenty of female PhDs in physics today, unlike when I studied maths. In my youth, there were only a few female mathematicians pursuing a normal university career. As far as I can see, the situation has changed significantly for female physicists. Today, they can get jobs in universities and in business, in addition to the classic high school teacher jobs.
But has equality been realised today? Not among the members of Videnskabernes Selskab (The Royal Danish Academy of Sciences), for example!
I will now share my own thoughts on teaching STEM subjects, especially physics and maths, which are the subjects I know most about:
I believe that the historical approach is an important aspect of communication: both in terms of the subjects themselves and in being able to talk about women in the history of physics, for example. My life partner, Frank Nielsen, and I do both on our website “Fysikken og dens Historie” (“Physics and its History”): www.fysikhistorie.dk.
I also know that the Department of Mathematics at University of Copenhagen currently has a compulsory course on the history of mathematics in the undergraduate programme.
I believe that it is important today that physics and maths teachers do not just teach those who know things almost by heart. Human knowledge and human wisdom are probably just as important as the subject matter itself.
Can you give a brief description of the website Fysikken og dens Historie and what it means to you?
Together with my life partner, Frank Nielsen, I worked on the above website between 2005 and 2019. We tried to communicate physics through the historical dimension. Frank did the nerdy stuff, such as computer animations, while I did the biographical, historical and certain professional overview articles. Our website is made up of chronological lists and we have a special search function where you can search by both physicist and subject.
It was a very exciting project for both of us, and it was essential to our relationship. It was great to be a creative couple, and it was great to always have a sparring partner at hand! (Today Frank is 91 years old).
What had happened to me during my studies was that I was no longer a ‘pure’ theoretical mathematician, and my interest in the history of science also really opened my eyes to physics. Physics now felt more meaningful to me than ‘pure’ maths. I am grateful to Frank who suggested this collaboration on physics.
Our website is still being used: in 1 year, the site has had 92,428 visitors.
Women in physics
During the years Frank and I worked on the website, I (we) tried to include as many female physicists and astronomers as possible, but there were not many in the years before women were admitted to university.
We had to stop the website entries at around year 1850, and this was before women could attend university. By the time we got to around year 1800, I was getting impatient. Now I wanted to specialise more in women in physics.
Since August 2023, my main focus has actually been on women in physics, in collaboration with Robert James Sunderland from the Niels Bohr Archive and KIF. Rob has been an invaluable help with archival material, including photos. My interest in Hilde Levi also stems from this collaboration. (Read Else’s article about Hilde Levi here.)
You have had some exciting collaborators as you’ve delved into the history of women in STEM. Can you describe your work with Rachel Levy on her blog Grandma Got STEM? Who is Rachel and what drives your shared mission?
As mentioned above, my interests went from maths to history of science and gender studies. That led me to women in STEM, specifically first women in maths, then women in physics. I have had several exciting collaborators in these fields.
My first collaborator in these fields was:
Margaret W. Rossiter, a historian of science specialising in women in STEM. She wrote the monumental trilogy: Women Scientists in America. I reviewed the entire trilogy in the Association for Women in Mathematics (AWM) Newsletter, May-June 2012.
Starting in 1983, I attended science history conferences and conventions focusing on women in STEM. Margaret appointed me Vice-President for Bibliography, The Commission for the History of Women in Science, Technology, and Medicine, 1983-1993.
In 2016, I participated in the TV series ‘Store Danske Videnskabsfolk’ (‘Great Danish Scientists’). I helped tell the story of Ebba Lund, biochemist, professor at the Agricultural University and resistance fighter. I was interviewed by science journalist Henrik Prætorius. The funny thing was that I had actually met Ebba Lund and we had just talked about women in STEM.
But my most important partner, besides Frank, has been Rachel Levy.
In 2013, American mathematician Rachel Levy approached me. I had been recommended to her when she was looking for international employees on her blog Grandma Got STEM.
She had just created the above blog. The blog features biographies of notable female scientists in the history of STEM subjects. The idea is that they can serve as role models. My main focus was on physics and mathematics.
Among the biographies on the blog which I have written myself, I would like to highlight two:
Sophie Brahe and Emmy Noether.
Both articles are under the name Hoyrup.
The article about Emmy Noether later formed the basis for my article in Kvant, 2016.
The blog lasted from 2013-2021 and is still online. The material which Rachel and I selected was characterised by commitment. But others also sent in material, for example about female relatives and foremothers. It wasn’t a ‘dry’ blog. We tried to make it exciting and informative. As a result, there are great similarities between my collaboration with Frank and my collaboration with Rachel.
Rachel has also become a regular sparring partner for me, even though we have not met in person. We still write together today.
Today, Rachel has become Executive Director, Data Science and AI Academy at North Carolina State University. Here, she has kept her focus on women. Rachel was born in 1968.
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